I saw this particular show [transcript follows] when it was aired on television and became convinced of one thing: ... Phil Donahue is truly clueless. He is absolutely clueless about Christianity and orthodox Christian theology. His claim to fame as a talk show host is seconded only to his total ignorance of interpersonal communication skills. Apparently he is highly sought after by the secular community and fans of liberal TV talk shows, though one can only imagine it is because the nature of talk shows as a forum for serious communication is a thing of the past, much like Donahue himself. Donahue obviously has no desire to “talk” to his guests. That would require him to be attentive to them, listen to their point of view and respond to their questions, actually be engaging with them, a skill that has completely escaped him. It seems that in place of real talking with a goal toward real understanding, Phil is much happier settling for inciting hatred toward the view-points of those he cannot tolerate.
Donahue's guests for the first segment August 20, 2002:
Rev. Albert Mohler
Rabbi Schmuley Botech
Following is the complete transcript to the Tuesday August 20, 2002 show downloaded from:
I have inserted various comments in this typeset throughout the transcript.
PHIL DONAHUE, HOST: Good evening and welcome to DONAHUE. Coming up later in the show, Martha Stewart turned over documents to the House panel today. We’ll talk to the ethicist for “The New York Times” magazine, who addresses America’s morals in decline. What do you think? We’ll also take a look at how the Middle East is being used in the fight for congressional seats, right here in this country. But first up, “Newsweek” is talking about it, so is the “Boston Globe.” Heaven, hell, who’s going and who’s not? And last week, according to a statement issued by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, Jews no longer have to be saved to get into heaven. So now all we have to do is convince the southern Baptists. Joining me are radio talk show host Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. Dr. Michael Brown is president of an organization known as Israel, the Church and the Nation Ministries. And from Louisville, Kentucky, Dr. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. Well, Dr. Mohler, sir, nice to see you again. You’re how many strong these days, the southern Baptists?
REV. ALBERT MOHLER, SOUTHERN BAPTIST MINISTER: About 16 million members, Phil, and about 40,000 churches. It’s good to be with you tonight.
DONAHUE: Thank you. Do these 16 million people believe Jews can go to heaven?
MOHLER: Southern Baptists, with other Christians, believe that all persons can go to heaven who come to faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. And there is no discrimination on the basis of ethnic or racial or national issues, related to who will go to the Scriptures. It’s those who are in Christ. The defining issue is faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So a good Jew is not going to heaven.
[Actually, Phil does get this right here at the beginning. “A good Jew is not going to heaven” if the basis for his going is his own merit as a Jew. But that is the same for everyone according to the teaching of Christianity. No one gets to heaven on the basis of their own merit, be it Jew, Christian, Muslim, atheist or Buddhist. Entering heaven will not ever happen for anyone on the basis of their own efforts. In that regard, Christianity sees all people as equally undeserving of heaven.]
MOHLER: Well, all persons are sinners in need of a savior. Jesus Christ is the sole mediator. And the gospel, we are told by the Apostle Paul, comes first to the Jews and then to the gentiles. And salvation is found in his name, and in his name alone, through faith in Christ.
DONAHUE: So if a Nazi killed a Jew, a good Jew, practicing Jew, the Jew goes to hell, but the Nazi still has a chance to get to heaven. That would be the consequence of your position.
[Don’t you just love the way that Phil sets up his guests? We particularly enjoy Phil’s arbitrary sense of ‘goodness’ as well. Phil hates the ‘black and white world’ of Christianity, but he’s too ignorant too see that he thinks in these terms himself. Apparently, in Phil’s world, all Nazi’s are bad simply by virtue of the fact that they are Nazis, and all practicing Jews are good by virtue of their being Jews. In Phil’s world, everything is black or white! Phil finds a way to use the narrowest of illustrations to display the narrowness of his point of view. In Phil’s limited world, a ‘practicing Jew’ deserves heaven because he practices what he believes. That is what makes him ‘good.’ But we cannot help but see that it has utterly escaped Phil’s grasp that in his attempt to show how bright and open he is in all of his views, he is apparently not bright enough or open enough to see the blindness of his own reasoning. He cannot see nor is he open enough to give the Nazi the same privileges he randomly sets for the Jew. We ask only one question of Phil. If the Jew is ‘good’ because of what he practices, if the basis for his goodness is his faithfulness to his belief system, why can’t the Nazi be good for being faithful to his belief system? If we are ‘good’ because of what we practice, then the Jew and the Nazi deserve the same accolades for being true and faithful to their beliefs. The Nuremburg trials demonstrated to the whole world that the Nazi leaders did what they did to the Jews because they were faithful to their belief system. They believed what they did was good because ‘goodness’ was based upon faithfulness to the system. We are not arguing here that Nazism is not heinous nor are we denying that what they perpetrated against the Jews wasn’t utterly inhumane. We are only saying that if in Phil’s limited view, if ‘goodness’ is genuinely achieved by faithfulness to one’s belief system, then the Nazi is equally as good as the Jew because he believes he is doing good by being faithful to his belief system. And Christianity teaches that it doesn’t matter how faithful you are to your belief system. Being faithful to your belief system cannot make you good enough to earn entrance into heaven. David Hume might as well have been speaking to Phil Donahue when he said, "I must confess that a man is guilty of unpardonable arrogance who concludes, because an argument has escaped his own investigation, that therefore it does not really exist"].
MOHLER: Well, the gospel is not just for the worst of us. The gospel is for all of us. And the scripture tells us the hard truth, that all have sinned. And that Nazi guard is going to be punished for his sin, and it will be judged as sin. His only hope would be the grace of God through Jesus Christ our Lord. And the profound truth of the gospel is that the salvation that can come to any person who comes to faith in Christ-can come to that Jew who was killed and to that guard who does the killing. That’s the radical nature of the gospel.
[No matter what he has done, no matter how heinous the crimes he has committed, the grace and mercy of God are gracious and merciful enough to forgive any individual. The heinous crime of the Nazi can be forgiven, and that forgiveness is a demonstration of how merciful God is. The only sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin of unbelief that God is not that merciful in forgiving others. “God has called us to spread His gospel -- not to screen candidates. To assume [like Donahue does] that someone is a good candidate for salvation is to deny that salvation is completely initiated by God alone and wholly undeserved by men. And to assume that someone is a poor candidate for salvation is pure pride -- did any of us really have anything more to offer God than anyone else? If God could save you and me, He can save anyone. That is the liberating lens through which we should view a world quietly living each day on death row” [John MacArthur, Letter, 5/15/98]. Even someone like Wesley Allen Dodd can be forgiven. Even someone like Phil Donahue can be forgiven. “Before Wesley Allen Dodd was executed by hanging, the convicted serial child-killer was given the customary opportunity for last words, he said, "I was wrong earlier when I said there was no hope or no peace. There is hope. There is peace. I have found both in the Lord Jesus Christ." According to eyewitnesses, the father of the two boys Dodd had murdered, "hissed quietly" as Dodd invoked the name of Jesus his Savior. After all, Dodd had viciously murdered, abused and mutilated three young boys. And like us, the father was thinking, "Was he really 'good' enough to be saved"? In honesty, we evangelicals must admit to the same kind of disbelief that someone like Wesley Allen Dodd could turn to Christ and find forgiveness. In reality, it's much harder for the "nice" people to find salvation than for the bad ones. A look at Jesus' ministry shows that people had the same problem when Christ was here on earth. He seemed to attract "such awful people." If it seems strange that grace can rescue child killers and drug traffickers, we have not really begun to fathom God's ocean of mercy. Nor have we peered long enough into our own hearts. He just didn't save a nice guy with a few problems when He saved me. Only when I truly believe God saved a wretch like me, will I grasp His great mercy. Without Christ, we are really no different in God's eyes from the murderer on the gallows.” [Luis Palau, Christianity Today, editorial].
DONAHUE: Well, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is with us. You’re author of “Judaism For Everyone.” You know, Reverend Mohler, this is such a vast organization. You have so many wonderful members. This just breeds anti-Semitism. I am sorry. You cannot possibly look a person in the eye and say, if you don’t come to Jesus, if you don’t change your faith, you’re not going to heaven. Reeks of prejudice, and also stirs the soul to evil behavior, in my opinion.
[From Phil’s narrow theological perspective, the Southern Baptist’s breed anti-Semitism by believing the gospel of Christ. This is so typical of the Phil Donahue ‘set up’ too. He never demonstrates a desire to get to any deep level of communication and explore religious belief. He simply uses his innuendos to stir up the wrath of Rabbi Schmuley. This is what Phil doesn’t get though. The gospel that Mohler is advocating breeds more than anti-Semitism. It breeds contempt for every religion that isn’t Christian. It’s not in opposition to Judaism only. It’s in opposition to every religion that teaches that there is another way to heaven other than Christianity! It’s as anti-Catholic as it is anti-Semitic!]
MOHLER: Well, if the church had just come up with this in the 20th century as a novel idea, perhaps it should be subjected to such a critique. But this is the gospel that has been received from the Lord Jesus Christ himself, who said he came, first of all, for the people and children of Israel, and then also for the gentiles. And he himself declared that he is the way, the truth and the light, and no man comes to the Father but through him. He spoke as a man born of the Jewish race, but who was also the son of God.
DONAHUE: Well, three cheers for the Catholic bishops. And it’s been a while since anybody has given them cheers. Well, Rabbi, it took us long enough, but we are no longer calling upon our faithful, Catholic faithful, to evangelize and convert the Jews. Praise the lord for that, whichever lord may be your favorite.
[Spoken like a true Catholic Phil. Let’s give three cheers to the Catholic bishops for their universalism and denial of orthodox Christianity. Let’s give three cheers to the Catholic priests who have now been revealed as covering up the molestation of hundreds and hundreds of children who suffered at the whims of sexually perverted clergy. Phil, are we to suppose that in your world, the heinousness of those sexual crimes perpetrated against children, is any less heinous in God’s eyes than the Nazi crimes against the Jews? According to Phil, Catholicism must be true because it embraces all religions. Yes, the Pope now embraces Islam and the Koran. Phil at least acknowledges that Catholicism has virtually departed from its orthodox roots and is now embracing Judaism as on an equal par with Christianity. And apparently the Catholics have seen the light! How can we tell? No more evangelism or converting Jews by your Catholic friends. Do you know why? Catholicism has even embraced the notion that whatever lord is your favorite is the one you should embrace, whether Krishna, Buddha, Marx, ... it really makes no difference].
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, “JUDAISM FOR EVERYONE”: Amen. John Paul II is one of the great friends of the Jewish people. Christians are our brothers and sisters, but they have to finally acknowledge that there is a 2,000-year repulsive, malignant history of the church, of trying to spiritually annihilate Jews by removing every last Jew on the face of the earth and converting them to Christianity and Jesus. And Reverend Mohler, however intelligent of a scholar he may be, he is a spiritual Neanderthal with repulsive, revolting views. Because we know in history that Christian, anti-Judaism has always led to racial anti-Semitism. This is the modern equivalent, Phil, of spiritual terrorism. You know, I have something to read here, which is possibly unbelievable, written by my colleague sitting to my left. “How then should we view the state of those Jews and gentiles who have never heard about the messiah and savior? We should see them as people about to get on a plane we know will soon crash.” Now, it’s remotely possible one or two will survive, but the vast majority are going to die. If you’re a Jew who rejects Jesus, you’re going to die!
[We feel for this Rabbi. He sort of sounds like a whining, spoiled cry baby who needs to have his diaper changed. But seeing him in action on Phil’s show is quite the raving spectacle. Mohler consistently brings the historical message of orthodox Christianity to Shmuley and all he can do is resort to epithets. “The Church spiritually annihilates Jews” ... “Mohler is a spiritual Neanderthal” ... and “Mohler’s views are the modern equivalent of spiritual terrorism.” Not once does Schmuley actually deal with any doctrinal issues of Christianity. He resorts to absurdities like this statement: “we know in history that Christian, anti-Judaism has always led to racial anti-Semitism.” Schmuley is of course unable to deal with doctrine or history. He only knows how to resort to the raving antics of emotional instability. But aren’t you curious? Just exactly how does someone spiritually annihilate a Jew? Don’t you just love the raving “buzz words” of this maniac Rabbi? Annihilate. “... a 2,000-year repulsive, malignant history of the church, of trying to spiritually annihilate Jews by removing every last Jew on the face of the earth and converting them to Christianity and Jesus.” Removing every last Jew on the face of the earth? This poor Rabbi has lost touch with reality. He confuses the Christian message and Jesus Himself with doing what Hitler tried to do!]
(CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Go ahead.
BOTEACH: Now, you would think that we just would have progressed to some sort of racial harmony and tolerance, especially after September 11.
[Isn’t it classic how Boteach raves about Christians being racially intolerant, but he cannot in all of his raving madness see any of his own! That is the classic example of spiritual blindness if we have ever seen it.]
DONAHUE: Doctor-you speak of Dr. Michael Brown, president of ICN ministries. Well, Dr. Brown, sir, you were born a Jew, raised by, I understand, liberal Jewish parents on Long Island?
MICHAEL BROWN, JEWISH BELIEVER IN CHRIST: That’s right.
DONAHUE: Do they survive, your parents?
BROWN: My dad died in 1977, my mom is turning 80.
DONAHUE: She’s got to be broken-hearted.
BROWN: She’s sitting right now watching this and rooting for me.
DONAHUE: She is?
BROWN: Oh, yes.
DONAHUE: You converted her to Christianity?
BROWN: My goal is not to convert Jews to Christianity. My goal is to get Jews, gentiles, to recognize who Jesus is. See, there is something that Shmuley said that’s so wild and so preposterous. Listen: “Jesus came as a Jew to fulfill what was written in ‘Moses and the Prophets.’” If he did it, Jews should believe in him. If not, throw the whole thing out. If Jesus is not for Jews, he’s not for anybody. The whole thing is a mockery. And what about Hindus? Should we not preach to Hindus because they have to change their faith? What about Muslims?
DONAHUE: Yes, what about them? Did Gandhi go to heaven?
BROWN: I’m not Gandhi’s judge, but if Gandhi rejected Jesus, he’s not good enough to get in. You’re not good enough, I’m not good enough. We need help. We need salvation.
DONAHUE: And I think you’re suggesting that the rabbi should be grateful that somebody is trying to bring Jesus to him? Do I understand your position?
BROWN: Listen, I’ve written extensively about the horrible history of anti-Semitism in the church. That’s a complete aberration. Just like Goldstein killing Muslims is an aberration of Judaism, OK? And someone once said that the 9/11 bombers, some Muslims would say that’s an aberration of Islam.
DONAHUE: But you’re telling Jews they’re not going to heaven.
BROWN: I’m telling Hindus, I’m telling gentiles, I’m telling Catholics, I’m telling Protestants...
BOTEACH: He’s an equal-opportunity offender. You know, if Jesus were alive today, I think he would take Reverend Mohler and Dr. Brown to court for character assassination. They took the prince of peace and made him into the torturer in chief. They took someone who was supposed to redeem, you know, the world, and made him someone who demeans mankind. They have made Jesus into someone who sits in the heavens as some sort of blackmailer in chief-I’m going to torture you, fry you in a wok, murder you, all because you don’t believe in me, irrespective of how you behave, Phil. And that’s an abomination.
[Why can’t the Rabbi just admit that in reality he hates the Christian message? First he whines (as if he’s back at the Wailing Wall) that all these verbal attacks are so offensive to the Jews. Now he’s calling Brown an equal opportunity offender! The truth of the matter is that Shmuley is utterly offended by the Christian message, no matter who is giving it and no matter to whom it is given. And every one that has read the Bible knows that the natural reaction to the gospel is rage. The message is hated by those who do not believe. Rabbi Schmuley is merely testifying to what Scripture has always taught: The message of the gospel that Christ preached to all Jews is utterly offensive to Shmuley. He’s completely offended by Christ’s gospel, yet he’s convinced that he knows what Jesus would say and do if he were here today. Schmuley clearly does not understand the Christian message at all. He pretends to know Jesus as a fellow Jew, but is clueless about His message. Do you note the irony of Schmuley’s understanding? He wants to believe so badly that he will be accepted by God because of his behavior. Yet he fails miserably to see his own hatred for the gospel that spews out of his mouth. The one message of mercy that God offers to the Jews and anyone else, Schmuley ridicules by suggesting it’s not acceptable to Jews like him that ‘behave’ well enough to get into heaven on their own merits. He absolutely is blinded to the gospel message that he thinks has something to do with self-righteous Jews getting into heaven on their own merits. That my friends, is the abomination of spiritual blindness!]
DONAHUE: Yes. You also have God kind of being an egomaniac. You’d better pray to me or I’ll show you what trouble really is. I don’t see God as a Santa Claus who rewards good and punishes evil. It seems to me, your position, Dr. Mohler, is very unfair to God.
[Don’t you love it? This isn’t your typical “God is unfair” argument. This is your atypical “Your argument is unfair to God.”]
MOHLER: Well, all I know is that God’s word, the scripture, tells us the authoritative message about who God is and what he would intend, and this issue of a one, true and living god. And one way of salvation didn’t even wait for Jesus in the New Testament. God declared this to Moses in the covenant at Sinai. He spoke very much about the fact that there was an order, to have no gods before him. Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of that law.
DONAHUE: Right. More on heaven and hell, when we return.
DONAHUE: We are talking about heaven and hell, who’s going, who’s not. My guests are Michael Brown, who was raised Jewish and now calls himself a Christian and works to, how do we say this, convert the Jews? Also Shmuley Boteach is here, a rabbi. And Albert Mohler has been introduced for what he is, the president of the Southern Baptists Theological Convention. Well, I have to say, gentlemen, the statement by the Catholic bishops, the U.S. Catholic Bishops’ conference, saying that they will-Catholics should no longer try to evangelize Jewish people, is a huge story that I thought got very little attention. It really is the brotherhood, sisterhood that we’re looking for all around the globe. I’ll respect your religion, Reverend Mohler, if you respect mine. But please don’t tell me that you know what’s good for me. There’s an arrogance to that. And if you suggest that you’re going to heaven and I’m not, you’re going to feel better than me. You’re up here and I’m down here, and this is the beginning of the Crusades, of all the terrible things that have-more havoc in the name of the prince of peace than anybody else on earth. You’re on the air, Reverend Mohler.
[I’ll respect your religion if you respect mine. Great Phil. Just what the world needs, respect for every religious conviction. What Phil cannot seem to grasp is that this is about truth, not respect. And that’s what Mohler and Brown have been saying since the beginning. What is the point of respecting a religious system that isn’t true? All Phil wants is tolerance at any cost. He’s not interested in whether or not something is true. I love how Phil talks about other people’s arrogance too. Especially a man like Mohler who has consistently demonstrated that he is not in the least bit arrogant. Again, Mohler and Brown’s and Christ’s position that Christianity are the only way are ONLY arrogant if what they say ISN’T true! It can’t possibly be true and arrogant.]
MOHLER: Well, all I know is that the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ, and that all who are there come by his grace and mercy alone. There is nothing in us to merit salvation. And so humility has to be the Christian posture.
DONAHUE: There is nothing humble about telling me I’m going to heaven if I don’t believe in Jesus. That is not humility. That’s arrogance.
MOHLER: It would be if this was our message. But if that is what the son of God said himself, if that is the truth, then it would be hateful and it would be intolerant not to tell you what we believe to be the truth. I can’t compel any person to believe in Christ, but I do have the responsibility, with gladness and joy, to share the good news of the gospel, knowing that all who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ shall be saved, whether Jew or gentile.
BOTEACH: Reverend Mohler, are you allowed to think? Because you sound like a broken record. You have been repeating this mantra since the show started. Now, does your religion allow for independent thought? Are you allowed to have a heart? Can you feel for people? Do you know that Jews have been turned into lamp shades and bars of soap and ashes? We’ve been stuffed into ghettos. We’ve been burned at the stake because of your repulsive, nauseating views. When are you going to finally allow your humanity to shine forth through your Christianity? Because you are becoming...
[Schmuley is so completely unteachable. He’s too immature to listen to the message even though he insists that this is the same thing that these Christians have been saying since the beginning of the show. “Can you feel for people?” What an amazing question. A raving rabbi spewing poison from his lips incessantly who demonstrates his perpetual hatred for Christians and the Christian gospel asks a question about caring for people? When this group met on the Donahue show for a second round of hate spewing mantras, Schmuley repeated this same sentiment again: “... lamp shades, ... bars of soap, ... and [turned into?] ashes.” Jews have been burned at the stake for the repulsive nauseating views of Jesus? For the message that “those who are weary and heavy laden come unto Me?” What pitiful lunacy Schmuley spews.]
(CROSSTALK) DONAHUE: Rabbi...
[Can’t you just hear the producers of the Donahue show... “There he goes again Phil. We told you that he’s going to lose it, and there’s the proof. Phil you’ve got to get him under control before he starts foaming at the mouth and demonstrates before the TV world his rabid hatred for Christianity. Help him to calm down Phil. Every time he goes off on the lampshade thing he looses it!"]
BOTEACH: You are showing such revolting views, you are a liability to Christianity.
DONAHUE: Let’s let Dr. Brown make his case here, please. You joined us late. I say respectfully, you’re a nice Jewish boy from Long Island.
BROWN: I’m still Jewish.
DONAHUE: And your mother survives today. You tell us she’s 80.
DONAHUE: And you’re trying to convert all your Jewish friends to Christianity.
BROWN: No, I’m not.
BOTEACH: He’s lonely!
BROWN: I’m not. There are tens of thousands of us.
BOTEACH: What do you need us for?
BROWN: Because I love you and I care about you.
BOTEACH: You love me so I have to be like you? Does your wife have to put on trousers and a jock strap because you love her too? Do I have to be, like, a Nazi blonde-haired, blue-eyed, in order for you to love me?
DONAHUE: Dr. Brown...
BROWN: Let me say this rationally.
[Dr. Brown wants to say something rationally because he knows that everyone on national television, the millions perhaps who were watching, just heard the frightened ranting and childish lunacy of a flaming liberal Rabbi who has absolutely no rationality or class whatsoever! Even Phil Donahue is embarrassed for this guy. (If he isn't, he should be!) Shmuley has been so completely pampered and used to getting his way every second of his Jewish life that he often has to resort to speaking like a spoiled brat when he sits in on interviews, especially when they don’t go in the direction he demands. Aside from that, one can only wonder if Shmuley lives a single second of his life free from hating Nazis and Christians. It’s pretty clear that the Nazis won after all in Shmuley’s case].
DONAHUE: Go ahead. (CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... you know better than that. Listen, very simply, you want to respect my faith? The core of my faith is that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, and we have to go tell everybody. It’s like me telling you, I respect your political views but you can’t be liberal. I respect you being a Jew, but you can’t believe in one god. To tell me you respect my faith but I can’t tell anyone-that’s the whole thing of it, is to tell the good news. There’s a way out.
DONAHUE: You can tell me about it. But you can’t stand there righteously and tell me you know what’s good for me. And you sure as hell can’t tell me that there’s only one way for me to get to heaven. Nobody is that smart, nobody.
[We’re not saying that that’s how smart we are Phil. We’re saying that that’s what the Bible teaches. The only righteousness that Phil Donahue should be worried about is his own self-righteousness. Phil has truly demonstrated that he is a pompous ass. In his utter arrogance he actually has convinced himself that simply because someone tells someone that there is only one way to God and that is through Christ alone, that makes that person righteous! The fact of the matter is that it’s only self-righteous to do that if it’s not true. We’re telling you Phil and Shmuley what Christ said is good for you! If there is only one way to get to heaven Phil, your pompous stupidity and arrogance will most definitely keep you out. But apparently, nobody, not even Christ Himself, can tell Phil Donahue what’s good for him. Why? Because not even God is as smart as Phil Donahue!]
BROWN: You tell people every day your views, what’s good for America.
DONAHUE: But I don’t insist they believe in them.
BOTEACH: ... burn in hell, for goodness’ sake! He doesn’t say that there’s a god who’s going to subject them to eternal punishment for being a conservative or a Republican, for goodness’ sake. You’re saying that we are the enemies of God. That we Jews have the mark of Satan branded on us because we rejected...
[You can almost see Shmuley’s hands shaking and quivering in his incensed lunacy about the implications of his rebellion and disbelief. His own unbelief in the God of Scripture has compelled him to react with utter abandonment. Up to this point, only Donahue has mentioned hell. No one else has. Yet Shmuley acts as if Brown has been arguing about hell from the first spoken word in the program! It’s so very odd that Shmuley says he knows so much about Jesus and Christianity, but apparently the sections where Jesus repeatedly warns people about eternal punishment for the kind of rebellion and hatred for Christian doctrine that Shmuley demonstrates has completely escaped him. Yes Shmuley, we are saying you Jews who hate Christ and his teaching are the enemies of God. You and anyone who believes like you do. But it’s not just Brown. Scripture is full of those statements about the Jews! Just pick up the Bible and read them for yourself! Get a clue. And then please stop the ranting].
BROWN: I’m not saying that.
BOTEACH: Of course you are! Your book is replete with anti-Semitic stereotypes. The Jews are rebellious, the Jews are going to be punished. The Jews have always been punished. You even...
BROWN: Those are the words of the prophets...(CROSSTALK)
BOTEACH: You even insinuate that the Holocaust, that Hitler was a messenger of God to punish us for the rejection of Jesus. And that is nauseating and stomach-turning, for goodness’ sake.
[Sweating and tormented, Shmuley is almost at the end of his rope. He’s so into the drama of it all isn’t he? Fighting desperately for his rebellion and hatred of Christ and truth, Shmuley’s fear and irrationality are seething to a boiling level now. Even Donahue is taking note, perhaps Donahue's producers are sending Phil little signals, "There he goes again. He's loosing it just like we thought he would. Remind him about it Phil. Tell him we ought to see if he can get a handle on himself now or we’ll have to take another commercial break....].
DONAHUE: I think we ought to...
DONAHUE: You wanted to say? Well, Reverend Mohler, you’re engaging in a little humility yourself. We appreciate your allowing us to have the time here. You’re first when we come back.
[Phil, you are a pompous ass and everyone knows it. You’re engaging in a little humility? What, while me and the looney bird Rabbi spew innuendos and falsehoods in raving mouthfuls of depravity? Somebody please help Phil get a clue! Somebody help him pull his head out! We appreciate how you have silently sat by while me and the Rabbi from hell have raped and pillaged everything you hold true and dear in your faith. Boy Phil! What a sensitive guy!]
DONAHUE: Reverend Mohler, hold on a second. You’re first. We have to do some of Caesar’s work here. And we’ll be back in just a moment.
DONAHUE: We’re back, talking about heaven and hell, who’s going, who’s not. When I get there, I’m looking for all three of you. You’ll be the first ones I’m looking for. We are with Michael Brown, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach and Albert Mohler. Well, I promised you, Reverend Mohler, president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, you’d get the first shot. What is it you wanted to say, sir?
MOHLER: Well, Mr. Donahue, I want to say, first of all, I want to thank you for giving time to such an important question. But I want to speak to the rabbi and say that, in humility, you need to know that I am fully aware that neither the Roman Catholic bishops nor the leaders of the Southern Baptist Convention have any power to send any soul to heaven or to hell. The question comes down to what the gospel really is. And what you assaulted in your language there is classical Christianity, as taught by the apostles and handed down by the church. I believe that God has a distinctive purpose for the Jewish people, and the Christians are called to be friends to all. And especially to the Jewish people with [a] sense of indebtedness. At the same time, we are to bear witness to the gospel, believing that God is going to do a remarkable thing in bringing many, many Jewish persons to faith in Christ, just as my brother Michael is, there in the studio with you.
DONAHUE: OK, Rabbi?
BOTEACH: Reverend Mohler, with all due respect, you are guilty of nailing Jesus to the cross. You have nailed him to the cross of intolerance, of racism, of spiritual Nazism. You are disgracing your church through your utter condemnation of perfectly moral, ethical people. The Jewish community is righteous and charitable. Stop telling us we’re going to go to hell. And you know nothing about Jesus. He was a Jew. Stop making him into an anti-Semite. You are the one who’s tarred him with the brush of people who hate his own people. If Jesus were alive today, he would shed more blood when he sees the suffering of the Jews at the hands of intolerant Christians like yourself. You should be ashamed of yourself and it’s time that you finally change. Because this is an embarrassment.
[We can almost tolerate your stupidity and childishness Shmuley, but your completely liberal lame theology has got to stop. You and your pompous stupidity must be silenced. The Great Rabbi Schmuley who knows so much about Jesus and the Hebrew Scriptures shows his utter ignorance. Read for yourself people what the Apostle Peter, a fellow Jew, said about Christ's crucifixion: "Him (Christ), being delivered by the determined counsel and foreknowledge of God, you (men of Israel) have taken by lawless hands, have crucified and put to death ... (Acts 2:23)." No Shmuley, the Bible says that the rebellious and hateful Jews crucified Christ, at the determined hand of God the Father. The Jewish forerunner John the Baptist said the same thing! “Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come?” (Luke 3:7). We’ll stop telling you are going to hell if you’ll only acknowledge that that is the gospel message that the Jesus you claim to know so well said the same thing!]
DONAHUE: You wanted to say, Dr. Brown?
BROWN: Let me say that Dr. Mohler was exactly right, represented Jesus the Jew plainly. You see, Jesus knew that there’s a coming judgment. You know, someone commits a crime in this world, we think it’s good that there are judges and courts. We’re going to be accountable for our actions, every one of us.
DONAHUE: Incidentally, you probably believe in original sin, don’t you?
BROWN: Not in the way the Catholic Church would teach it. But we’re a fallen race. We’re a fallen race.
DONAHUE: What’s the fall? I’m born, I’m innocent, and I’ve got an original sin? I fell? How can I fall?
BROWN: We’re a messed-up race.
DONAHUE: Messed up. All right.
BROWN: Look at the state of the world. Look at the state of the Middle East. Look at the state-from ethnic cleansing to genocide...
DONAHUE: But how did this happen to you, Dr. Brown? We should know more about Jesus. This is interesting. Were you bar mitzvahed?
BROWN: Yes, I was.
DONAHUE: And you’re married?
BROWN: Yes, I am.
DONAHUE: Did you marry a shiksa?
BROWN: My wife is a Jewish believer in Jesus, like me.
DONAHUE: A Jewish believer in Jesus.
BROWN: Here’s what happened...
BOTEACH: Somewhere in the middle.
BROWN: I was 16 years old, playing drums in a rock band. And the whole counterculture, rebellion scene, heavily into drugs. I just wanted to live an immoral, godless lifestyle. I was shooting heroin at 15. And Christians were kind enough to pray for me and put up with my nonsense until the light went on. And my life was radically changed. Was that a good thing, or should I be back shooting heroin?
BOTEACH: Well, that’s a good question. Are you better off shooting heroin or believing that Hitler was an agent of god to punish the Jews for rejecting Christ? I’m not sure.
BROWN: I never said or wrote that, Shmuley.
BOTEACH: You absolutely say in your book that God punished the Jews of the Holocaust for rejecting Jesus. And you said the Jewish grandmothers were all sitting there. I’d like to believe my grandmother has a knish in heaven somewhere, but unfortunately she’s in the barbecue.
DONAHUE: Jewish grandmothers go to you-know-what? They go down, not up, huh?
BROWN: Jewish, gentiles grandmothers, grandfathers, are not good enough without Jesus.
DONAHUE: Only seconds left, Reverend Mohler. I thank you for joining us. Did you want to sign off with an amen or a mazal tov? It’s up to you.
MOHLER: I appreciate my brother Michael’s witness. All I know is to repeat the words said by a Jewish man who came to know the Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Peter. I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God, the salvation to all who believe. To the Jews first, and also to the gentiles.